Curse

Razz L Dazzle · Jan 25, 2007, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Reading through this post i have to acknowledge some decent suggestions and some bad ones, like most posts. If PvE minion masters are hurt in a proposed soul reaping or minion nerf, there will be more than one Necro saccing himself to death. This could in turn work out very badly for A-net and future business. That said, i have heard a few suggestions that could keep MM's viable in PvE and nerf JB's real problem, being an infinite energy machine to Necro allies.

The Problem: One of the biggest problems is the build popularized in HA then used by DKT, among others, in GvG. The JB necro supplies massive energy to necro hexers, with no apparent downside to them. The ranger/ ritualist spirit spammer give opposing teams energy problems while boosting their own team significantly. The synergy of how well minions have boosted constant blood spiking and necro hexers seems to be the real issue. I for one have never been in fear of the actual damage/condition threat of minions overall. This build has overpowering pressure unless you have many of the existing counters in your build, many interrupts, banishing strike, Divert hexes, purge signet, convert, etc.. Winning becomes a product of the skills you brought not the skill you possess. Which is a bane of top GvG players and others alike. Beating this build typical requires more than just one of the counter measures. A favorable map may help you win with split tactics but playing this build straight up, as you are forced to do in HA is time consuming to say the least.

The proposed idea from Ensign, i believe, of + energy regen seems like a decent idea but i think this would be a messy change and would hurt PvE. I don't think anyone knows what impact this would have. It could be real good or it could be terrible. If this wasn't thoroughly tested i'd disapprove of seeing this proposed change.

One of the best ideas would be to have the energy gained from minions Given solely to the Necro summoner. It fits to reason if you create a minion you should reap the benefit of it. This process would not hurt PvE minion masters, rather keeping them the same. If this was the solution, JB would be little more than a component of a pressure build. (probably not worth it in GvG and HA, but possibly) The rest of necros would not be supplied with infinite energy. They would be quite limited much like the rest of the team. Blood is power and Blood ritual were meant to be energy engines, not Jagged Bones.

Now this does pose a potential problem to Soul Reaping, which has always been a problem because it is either overpowered or useless. Necros still gain energy from spirits and dead enemies at the same rate. They could still choose to bring blood ritual or BiP to boost energy levels. They still have the longest lasting hexes, usually cheap cost, making them superior to Mesmer hexers but they would be energy restricted. Signet of Lost souls may be taken to help. This would make playing pure necro hex based teams more managable. They could still take Rit's to help energy but with minions in check they won't be able to overpower in the same manner. The power of the build would lie more in Reaper's mark, spoil victor hex durations than soul reaping energy.

This proposed solution may have more problems and hurt allied/opposing necros more than i have estimated at this point. I can't be sure until i've seen this tested. If A-net doesn't rework some of the potential problems sighted in this thread then i see balance in serious jeopardy.

-Razz

Patccmoi · Jan 25, 2007, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Personally i kinda agree with what Ensign posted in the Weekend feedback forum about how it might be better to just rework Soul Reaping.

The problem is that Soul Reaping is nearly never balanced. Either it's useless, or good to the point where you want N/X for every caster role in the team.

I liked his suggestion overall, but i think it might weaken it a bit too much. The way i'd see it atm is :

Soul Reaping

Whenever a creature die, you gain 1..3..4 pips of energy regen for 10 seconds. When a creature under your control die, you gain an additional 1E for every 2 points in Soul Reaping.

So yes, you could have very good energy regen if things die constantly, but nothing going in the 2 digits. With 7 pips of regen, you can't run AEcho-Spiteful Spirit under QZ and keep it on 4 people at once. For MMs, they'd still gain half SR bonus when THEIR minions die, and having the extra regen on top they should be fine to power their spells.

I think that this makes SR slightly better when there isn't any exploit going on (8 in SR would mean you gain 10E over 10s when something dies) but doesn't allow SR exploitation since wether 1 creature or 100 creatures die every 10s you get the same net energy. It would also give Reaper's Mark energy bonus more value since it'd be net +E on top of energy regen instead of giving you a huge chunk of energy when target dies that nearly always go way waaay over your energy limit.

leguma · Jan 25, 2007, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Ensign's suggestion is deceptively good, and while at first it may look like a no-duh thing, looking at it in the bigger picture, it is flawed.

While on paper, giving X seconds of +3 energy regen, where X = the points you have in SR would seem like the equivalent of what is currently in place, whi the added bonus of no aditional benefit from multiple deaths, there is one major issue, the timeframe. SR benefit spikes, it is almost always no gain, with occasional burst of big gains in energy. Traditionally, this was ballanced by the fact that the enrgy came when it came, regardless of wether you neededit or could actually store it. Furthemore, since things dying is about as conditional as you could possibly get, it was by no means reliable. The problem with SR has always been getting maximum use out of it, however, with the proposed change, you could always get maximum use out of it, regardless of your actual energy or usage. With the gain as regen over such a long time, the benefits of SR would hardly ever get wasted.

Furthermore, while the proposed change would cap the possible benefit that JB teams get, on the opposite side, every other non minion solitary necro would bee looking at 7 pips of energy regen, which will probably be up a lot of the time without any need for special skills or strategies. The odd spirit or pet would keep the SR regen up probably half the time, resulting in a overall more versatile energy gain.

Then there is the problem of the exorbitant cost of many death skills. Because the benefits of courreaping will no longer stack, many of the skills (especially the ones that cost 25 energy) willl become nigh unusable without additional skills to help manage energy, which would be on top of all the invest ment in the atribute. Many PvE players will have a word to say about this, and for good reason, the necro class was designed in a certain way, and cush a change to SR would warrant the rethingking of many skills.

Other sollutions such as making minions give no energy would only serve to make running them even more useless, while things such as sharing the SR from them give rise to other problems. DO you chare it across all teams, or just the one that had the minion? If I have 16 in SR and you have 6, how much do we each get?

At the end of the day, SR is only really broken in JB builds, spirits and regular minons being nowhere near enough to fuel a team the way this elite does. All of the sollutions so far are centered around the skill itself, however, that is not what is needed in order to ballance it.

Jagged Bones:
For 30 seconds, whenever target undead servant dies BECAUSE OF DAMAGE OR DEGEN, it is replaced by a level 0...12 Jagged Horror that causes Bleeding with each of its attacks.

Tada. Without the ability to keep respawning the minion by using Taste of Death, you have neutered this skill as a broken infinite enrgy engine, but left it intact for each and every other legitimate purpose.

Carinae · Jan 26, 2007, 06:31 PM // 18:31

I'm not sure Ensign's proposal will work either. It doesn't provide any benefit for multiple deaths, and realistically, minions die in groups very often. It will be a major issue if MMs lose 5 minions at once, but only get the benefit of a single death, even if the cost of minion spells is reduced.

Example:

You have SR=10 and Fiends now cost 10e. You have 10 Fiends animated. You engage an Ele and he kills 5 Fiends on the first hit.

Ensign's proposal would give you 10e after 10s, which means you'd be able to replace ONE Fiend after 13 seconds of play. Ten seconds of regen, and 3 second cast.

Currently, you would gain 50e instantly and be able to replace TWO minions (at 25e) within 6 seconds.

A MM's minion generating ability would be reduced OVER 75%, even with an extreme reduction in minion cost!

Just remember that Ensign doesn't play MM like most people. He plays hard and fast, and doesn't spend time healing and making sure he stays at 10 animated minions.

I probably burn nearly as much energy on BotM as I do animating. I only run Fiends and I like to keep 10 up all the time, so I use BotM a lot. I doubt if BotM gets reduced below it's current 5e, so again, it's another hit to your energy because you're Reaping less incoming energy, but still spending the same on BotM. And it gets used very often, so it adds up.

EDIT: Let me offer another example. Veiled Nightmare. VM makes all spells cost 40% more energy, which is a good example for this purpose. Goto the Domain of Secrets and try playing MM while under VM. It's damn near impossible, even while running Reapers Mark + Sols. I couldn't even reach the minion cap, 6-7 minions max. If 40e for a Fiend doesn't break you, an 8e BotM will.

You wouldn't think that extra 3e would matter much, but it does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leguma

Jagged Bones:
For 30 seconds, whenever target undead servant dies BECAUSE OF DAMAGE OR DEGEN, it is replaced by a level 0...12 Jagged Horror that causes Bleeding with each of its attacks.

Tada. Without the ability to keep respawning the minion by using Taste of Death, you have neutered this skill as a broken infinite enrgy engine, but left it intact for each and every other legitimate purpose.

Unfortunately, that won't work.

Soul Reaping = 16
Death Magic = 0

They will die on the first hit, or after 10s from degen. They will basically last long enough to recast JB. But the energy engine is unaffected.

leguma · Jan 26, 2007, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Unfortunately, that won't work.
Soul Reaping = 16
Death Magic = 0
They will die on the first hit, or after 10s from degen. They will basically last long enough to recast JB. But the energy engine is unaffected.

I'm sorry, but you must be joking. Yes, they can keep the train going outside of battle, but once the two teams clash, those minions ar not even going to last long enough to cast Jagged once. Even if they do cast Jagged, hit the minion, it dies... under QZ, Jagged has a 2 second recharge, so you then have 2 seconds to actually kill a level 0 minion.

Once one of these teams is without minions, all those high energy skills start to burn a hole in their pocket. Sure, it will not stop the minion train at the root, it would still be possible, but it becomes incredibly easy to take out. If you really think it's not enough, there is one further step:
"50% chance of failure with Death Magic 7 or less."
Again, this will not hamper any legitimate use of this skill, but will give those minions enough health to take a long time to die out of combat, while still leaving them very weak to being killed in combat before JB can be reapplied.

If you feel that's still not enough, just remove the degen altogether and make them spawn only from damage. A propper MM will be healing the minions anyways. This way, you can't even keep the JB far behind everyone else.

Lord Mendes · Jan 26, 2007, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Rework Jagged Horrors so they no longer give you soul reaping.

Carinae · Jan 26, 2007, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by leguma

I'm sorry, but you must be joking. Yes, they can keep the train going outside of battle, but once the two teams clash, those minions ar not even going to last long enough to cast Jagged once. Even if they do cast Jagged, hit the minion, it dies... under QZ, Jagged has a 2 second recharge, so you then have 2 seconds to actually kill a level 0 minion.

The point was that the energy engine is unaffected. You could run the minion train in your gh and still power the necros outside/at the gate. I wasn't being critical, I just would anticipate people trying to weasel around your fix.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leguma

If you really think it's not enough, there is one further step:
"50% chance of failure with Death Magic 7 or less."

There you go, that would work now.

EDIT: I think this is the best solution:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagged Bones

For 30 seconds, whenever target undead servant dies, it is replaced by a level 0...12 Jagged Horror that causes Bleeding with each of its attacks. Minions spawned from JB only return SR to their Master.

PvP problem solved, PvE unaffected.

Narfolik · Jan 26, 2007, 09:33 PM // 21:33

make JB PvE only, like Lightbringer Gaze, my Olias likes it as it is :P

just joking, i have sugestion for SR, make it give energy only if you re in earshot range of dieing something, i remember the good old days in pre-ascalon with my nerco, just chilling out on top of the wall in the main city, and massing energy from SR from constant fighting between academy monks, guards against the Charr, which you can see

Divineshadows · Jan 26, 2007, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

EDIT: I think this is the best solution:

For 30 seconds, whenever target undead servant dies, it is replaced by a level 0...12 Jagged Horror that causes Bleeding with each of its attacks. Minions spawned from JB only return SR to their Master.

PvP problem solved, PvE unaffected.

While I have no problem with that suggested change, it still doesn't fix the problem that soul reaping is broken and is exploited in ways other than through jagged bones.

Bowstring Badass · Jan 26, 2007, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

Rework Jagged Horrors so they no longer give you soul reaping.

I would say make it so it can not be used on Jagged Horrors.

Carinae · Jan 26, 2007, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

While I have no problem with that suggested change, it still doesn't fix the problem that soul reaping is broken and is exploited in ways other than through jagged bones.

It's not broken. It comes down to this: Soul Reaping is a PvE attribute. It's exclusively intended to power PvE MMs. SR and Death are intimately related. That's NOT true for Blood and Curses.

It behaves wonky in PvP because it's not being used how it's intended. But you have to be careful in fixing it, because you DON'T want to mess up the PvE MMs who aren't causing problems/balance issue for anyone. If an adjustment, even a radical one, can still provide adequate power for PvE MMs (and they need a LOT) then that's fine.

But several suggstions in this thread clearly don't give a rats-ass about the PvE impact.

Divineshadows · Jan 26, 2007, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

It behaves wonky in PvP because it's not being used how it's intended.

How it was intended is of no consequence. How certain skills and game mechanics actually get used are of great consequence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

But you have to be careful in fixing it, because you DON'T want to mess up the PvE MMs who aren't causing problems/balance issue for anyone.

....

Gladiator's Arena > PvP Build Directory > PvP Skill Discussion

^^^
map

You seemed lost, so I decided to provide you with directions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

But several suggstions in this thread clearly don't give a rats-ass about the PvE impact.

There must be about one million posts spread throughout several different threads on GWG that state the same thing -- game balances are made for PvP. PvE impact? Nothing says powergaming PvE like a MM necro. If the energy management is hurt enough for MM, then A-net can simply lower the cost of the overcosted animate skills to compensate.

Carinae · Jan 26, 2007, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Gladiator's Arena > PvP Build Directory > PvP Skill Discussion

I know where I am.

It's not a PvP vs PvE issue. I'm a believer in balance, if something is broken in PvP it neeeds fixed, even if that affects PvE.

I just wanted to add some input from an actual PvE MM because people clearly don't understand the extend of the impact on the PvE side.

Ensign · Jan 27, 2007, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by leguma

Traditionally, this was ballanced by the fact that the enrgy came when it came, regardless of wether you neededit or could actually store it.

Actually it was balanced by Soul Reaping not being very relevant in PvP, meaning that it never needed to be balanced. In situations where Soul Reaping has been relevant it has almost universally been overpowered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leguma

you could always get maximum use out of it, regardless of your actual energy or usage. With the gain as regen over such a long time, the benefits of SR would hardly ever get wasted.

In cases where very few things are dying, absolutely. However, remember that in such situations, Soul Reaping is a *terrible* attribute. Losing out of the minimal energy you get back from Soul Reaping from situationally having very good energy just makes a bad attribute even worse.

I would put forth the argument that changing deaths to give energy regen, instead of straight energy gain, simultaneously nerfs Soul Reaping when it is at its strongest while buffing it when it is at its weakest, making it more of a universally applicible attribute. Furthermore, that universally applicible effects are much better suited to being primary attributes than narrow, conditional effects.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leguma

on the opposite side, every other non minion solitary necro would bee looking at 7 pips of energy regen, which will probably be up a lot of the time without any need for special skills or strategies.

With a minion master on his team, yes. Without one, the energy gain would be less predictible, and would very closely approximate the energy gain returned under the current system. Being at a constant seven pips with a minion necro on your team is a pretty nice perk...however, the current system has those Necros running at a somewhat variable (and wasted) 15 pips or so, which is not even remotely comparable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leguma

Then there is the problem of the exorbitant cost of many death skills.

Minions pay a 'Soul Reaping tax' in their pricing. They generally are not worth the energy cost asked without a substantial amount of that energy being paid for by the Soul Reaping bump you get when the corpse appears.

If a change from straight energy gain to energy regen gain was made, the Soul Reaping tax would need to be removed from minion skills, no question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leguma

Many PvE players will have a word to say about this, and for good reason, the necro class was designed in a certain way, and cush a change to SR would warrant the rethingking of many skills.

My challenge is for them to say something about balance. My experience with PvE input on balance discussions is a generalized, unsubstantiated opposition to change. A change to Soul Reaping would absolutely make big changes to the way Minion Masters played, and would absolutely require people to rethink their bars. So what? Tell me why that would make Minion Masters underpowered, tell me why that is bad for the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leguma

At the end of the day, SR is only really broken in JB builds

Bullshit. Soul Reaping is broken every single time it is made a focus of a strategy. Fortunately for the game, that is not terribly often in PvP, and it can be safely ignored because of it. Soul Reaping breaks pretty much everything it touches in PvE, but no one cares, because it's PvE.

Peace,
-CxE

leguma · Jan 27, 2007, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Actually it was balanced by Soul Reaping not being very relevant in PvP, meaning that it never needed to be balanced. In situations where Soul Reaping has been relevant it has almost universally been overpowered.
...
Soul Reaping is broken every single time it is made a focus of a strategy. Fortunately for the game, that is not terribly often in PvP, and it can be safely ignored because of it. Soul Reaping breaks pretty much everything it touches in PvE, but no one cares, because it's PvE.

Granted, but I also look at it from the dev's point of view. Currently, spirits and the likes are nowhere near enough to provide massive ammounts of energy. Nothing comes close to the energy engine that is JB. Sure, I agree, if and when players make a build that focuses on soulreaping, it will be because they can make the most use of it, to the point where it is overpowered. Fortunately, like you said, in PvP this very rarely happens, and as such I would imagine that it would be far more realistic for A.net to ballance JB than to rework the entire primary atribute and everything ele this implies. Yes, taking a good long look at the atribute and changing it is what would be better overall, especially down the line when such problems will undoubtedly pop up again, then again, if you look at the proposed skill ballance, this skill was not even touched, so I think the complete reworking of SF ain't gonna be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

In cases where very few things are dying, absolutely. However, remember that in such situations, Soul Reaping is a *terrible* attribute. Losing out of the minimal energy you get back from Soul Reaping from situationally having very good energy just makes a bad attribute even worse.
I would put forth the argument that changing deaths to give energy regen, instead of straight energy gain, simultaneously nerfs Soul Reaping when it is at its strongest while buffing it when it is at its weakest, making it more of a universally applicible attribute. Furthermore, that universally applicible effects are much better suited to being primary attributes than narrow, conditional effects.

Undoubtably, however, and I'm thinking mostly PvP here, we're looking at taking a variable benefit attribute and basically buffing it to it's full previous power in all but the most extreme of cases. In everything other than a JB build, you will basically be gaining the MAXIMUM previously possible benefit. While this change will chop off the extreme high end of the spectum, where necros can spam high energy skills endlessly, it will also chop off the bottom end of the spectum, making 5 energy spells spamable beyond belief.
Sure, SR would become a far better universally useful attribute, the issue here is if it would become too good, and I think it would.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

With a minion master on his team, yes. Without one, the energy gain would be less predictible, and would very closely approximate the energy gain returned under the current system. Being at a constant seven pips with a minion necro on your team is a pretty nice perk...however, the current system has those Necros running at a somewhat variable (and wasted) 15 pips or so, which is not even remotely comparable.

I will presume that when you say "the current system" you mean "only in the case of JB and when the minion refresh takes place unhindered." The proposed energy gain would not closely aproximate, it would be exactly identical to, but even better because even if you are full of not, you still get the regen, allowing you to start casting and make use of it even after the instant that death occurs. As for it not being predictable, that is a case to case affair. Take skills such as Destruction... 20 second recharge.... with 16 SR, you're looking at a 3/4 uptime for that regen just from this skill alone. Sure, you could gimp the gain from spirits to half the duration but all that really means is needing to take another copy.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you on most of this stuff, however, I do believe that the change you are proposing would drastically affect not only the high end of the spectum of SR, but also the bottom one, making it pretty much a flatliner. I am sure that you do not contest this, however, you are saying that it is not a problem, while I believe that players can and will abuse everything. SR is overpowered when abused now, the question is, will it also be overpowered when abused under your proposed changes? 7 pips of regen is nothing compared to what it is possible to currently get, however it is nothing to scoff at, that's half of ether prodigy, with no exaustion and no posibility of removal... Add other skills such as GolE to the equasion and you're looking at a lot of very sustainable energy, and the issue is that unlike JB, this will not require a dedicated character and elite for it, and could be simple to accomplish with just a few spirits, and or pets.

Ideally, many of the useless primary attributes should be loooked at, and then all thoose skills that are tied to them would need tweaking, but I really don't see that coming to pass anytime soon. In the meantime, if they fix JB, things wil simmer down and SR abuse will die down again untill the next silly skill that they make without actually thinking of how it will be used.

Phades · Jan 27, 2007, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by leguma

Yes, taking a good long look at the atribute and changing it is what would be better overall, especially down the line when such problems will undoubtedly pop up again, then again, if you look at the proposed skill ballance, this skill was not even touched, so I think the complete reworking of SF ain't gonna be.

There is a difference between fixing the problem and covering it up with a band-aid. The problem is soul reaping and JB with spirits merely highlights that problem. The problem has always existed, only in ch1 pvp wise, it was too weak while now it can be argued as too strong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leguma

In everything other than a JB build, you will basically be gaining the MAXIMUM previously possible benefit. While this change will chop off the extreme high end of the spectum, where necros can spam high energy skills endlessly, it will also chop off the bottom end of the spectum, making 5 energy spells spamable beyond belief.

I am fairly positive that most people here are far more comfortable with necros having the ability to spam orison of healing instead of heal other, infuse health, heal party, ageis, and other skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leguma

Sure, SR would become a far better universally useful attribute, the issue here is if it would become too good, and I think it would.

It would marginalize BiP on other necros, but given the current state of soul reaping, i would consider that to be a non-issue. Its not enough of a buff to make them flag stand flash bots, but empowers them more than other caster professions passivly. This is a similar to suggestions made to modifying energy storage in the past, when comparing it directly to expertise. The only difference is that soul reaping always returned energy passivly while energy storage required ether prodigy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leguma

As for it not being predictable, that is a case to case affair. Take skills such as Destruction... 20 second recharge.... with 16 SR, you're looking at a 3/4 uptime for that regen just from this skill alone. Sure, you could gimp the gain from spirits to half the duration but all that really means is needing to take another copy.

Or you can take skills like feast of souls and get it on demand, similar to taste of death with JB.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leguma

7 pips of regen is nothing compared to what it is possible to currently get, however it is nothing to scoff at, that's half of ether prodigy, with no exaustion and no posibility of removal... Add other skills such as GolE to the equasion and you're looking at a lot of very sustainable energy, and the issue is that unlike JB, this will not require a dedicated character and elite for it, and could be simple to accomplish with just a few spirits, and or pets.

Its localized to each necro, instead of multiplying its self well beyond what is possible through pips of regen. If you are going to start balking at 7 pips passivly, you need to get on the bandwagon to get expertise nerfed into oblivion then. Really, you need to observe what necros were in ch1 in order to appriciate the *ideal* situation that this style of change is aiming for. If people are dying occasionally in a relativly even match and you are getting a regular flow of energy from it, its basically the same thing and cuts out the aplification through spirits and minions. In other words, its taking the ether renewal out of it and giving it pips instead. Remeber each second someone has 3 pips of regen = 1 point of energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leguma

Ideally, many of the useless primary attributes should be loooked at, and then all thoose skills that are tied to them would need tweaking, but I really don't see that coming to pass anytime soon.

Erm, strength has run speed boosts and its bonus is marginal. Unless attack skill bonuses stop being armor ignoring, strength is always going to be what it is. Spawning power has almost nothing really useful in it and only benefits a select few communing spirits and ANET is trying to move away from spirit spam. An amusing change would be to move union, shelter, wanderlust, earthbind, and displacement to the spawning power attribute. Then you have energy storage, which well, doesn't do anything unless you are using ether prodigy or ether prism. The other primary attribute lines are far more useable given the current situation. If you want to start with underpowered primary attributes, start with those 3, not soul reaping.

HolyHawk · Jan 27, 2007, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Wouldn't it be simple if the minions only give energy to their masters when they die? The energy regen thing is also good, but I still think they way SR works with minions should be reworked.

Thomas.knbk · Jan 27, 2007, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Erm, strength has run speed boosts and its bonus is marginal. Unless attack skill bonuses stop being armor ignoring, strength is always going to be what it is. Spawning power has almost nothing really useful in it and only benefits a select few communing spirits and ANET is trying to move away from spirit spam. An amusing change would be to move union, shelter, wanderlust, earthbind, and displacement to the spawning power attribute. Then you have energy storage, which well, doesn't do anything unless you are using ether prodigy or ether prism. The other primary attribute lines are far more useable given the current situation. If you want to start with underpowered primary attributes, start with those 3, not soul reaping.

I would spec 0 in Strength and Energy Storage if it wasn't for some very useful skills these attributes have, and on Eles that don't use Ether Prodigy/Prism I rarely go over 6.
Soul Reaping's problem is not that it's underpowered though. The opposite more than anything. And neither would it be if the 'pips' were implemented.

One thing I'd like though is if instead of this:
'whenever something dies, you gain +3 energy regeneration for 1..12.16 seconds'
it would be like this:
'whenever something dies, you gain +1..3.4 energy regeneration for 10 seconds.'
IMO the first variant would still be very strong in a team with a spirit spammer/MM even with only 3 points in soul reaping. The second variant would at least require a significant attribute investment.

Riotgear · Jan 27, 2007, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

IMO the first variant would still be very strong in a team with a spirit spammer/MM even with only 3 points in soul reaping.

It would work with something as simple as someone bringing a low-level pet to die in AOE.

leguma · Jan 27, 2007, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Or you can take skills like feast of souls and get it on demand, similar to taste of death with JB.

And here you have the actual problem with SR. It's perfectly fine when it happens beyond your control, but totally broken when people can make it kick in at will.

If you make it so that the SR energy gain is uncontrolable such as by limiting it to only when creatures die of combat, it will be fine. This will eliminate things such as spirits and minions from the equasion unless the enemy team kills them, and at that point, it is totally out of your hands and totally dependant on the enemy team. They can easily do this... Just look at the survivor title, you only incur deaths from combat. When you can no longer simply recast a spirit to trigger SR, and minions only give it when they are destroyed by the enemy team SR will be working the way it was intended and there will be no need to make further adjustments to it in order to keep the game ballance.

Once again, I'm not saying that SR is fine as it is, however, everyone is acting like this were some minor change that can be tossed in and be done with, when in fact it is a big-ass change that will totally need rethinking of a lot of the necro skills and a crapload of testing.